Two Aliens - The Hope Diamond: History, Properties, and Legend

💎🌍 The Hope Diamond: History, Properties, and Legend

Podcast: Two Aliens

In this episode, our two alien minds explore the extraordinary journey of the Hope Diamond — one of the most famous and mysterious jewels in the world.

We explore:

• The diamond’s origins in Indian mines during the 17th century

• Its early ownership by French gem trader Jean-Baptiste Tavernier

• Its transformation into the French Blue under the court of Louis XIV

• Disappearance during the French Revolution

• Re-emergence in the 19th century as the Hope Diamond

• Ownership by wealthy collectors and European nobility

• The legend of the diamond’s alleged curse

• Scientific analysis revealing its rare deep-blue color

• Donation to the Smithsonian Institution

• Its status today as one of the world’s most visited gemstones

A glittering journey through royalty, revolution, and myth — asking whether the Hope Diamond’s dark reputation is coincidence, storytelling, or something more mysterious.

👽👽

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Imagine you are standing in a completely pitch black room.

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Right. Total darkness.

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Exactly. Total darkness. And in front of you, a scientist flips on a short wave ultraviolet light. It illuminates a gemstone that's roughly the size of a walnut.

SPEAKER_00 0:14

Just glowing under that harsh invisible radiation.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

Yeah. For a few seconds, the stone is just bathed in it. Then the scientist turns the light off. You are plunged right back into that total darkness. But the stone itself does not go dark.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Which is where it gets strange.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

It really does. Instead of going dark, it begins to glow with this intense, fiery, blood-red phosphorescence. I mean, it looks like a burning coal radiating this really unsettling crimson light all on its own for nearly two minutes.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

And uh that is not science fiction. That is a documented, measurable physical property of the world's most famous diamond.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

It is. And welcome to a highly detailed, comprehensive audiobiography of an object that has captivated human imagination for centuries. Today we are bringing you the definitive chronological history of this incredible gemstone.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Our mission today is to trace its path from its violent geological formation, which was approximately 1.1 billion years ago, deep within the Earth's mantle, all the way to its current resting place inside a custom engineered bulletproof display case.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

And to do this, we're utilizing a massive stack of historical records, precise gemological data, and rigorous scientific research to give you the complete picture. And we want to set the tone right now for you listening. While there are, you know, wild, fantastical legends attached to the stone, our exploration today will separate the cold, hard science and the documented history from Victorian era fiction.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Right. You will hear no myths treated as reality here, just pure, fascinating facts about an object that has touched empires, survived revolutions, and pushed the frontiers of modern science.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Okay, let's unpack this. We have to start exactly 1.1 billion years ago, far below the surface of the earth.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Yeah, to truly understand this object, you really have to first understand the extreme violent conditions of its birth. I mean, diamonds do not form near the surface of the earth where life exists.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

No, not at all.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

They are forged approximately 100 miles deep within the Earth's mantle. And at this incredible depth, the environment is defined by unimaginable extremes. We are talking about temperatures exceeding 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

Which is staggering. And the pressure, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Oh, the pressure is upwards of 725,000 pounds per square inch. Under those specific conditions, individual carbon atoms are subjected to such intense force that they are actually compelled to bond together.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

They don't have a choice.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

Exactly. They form a rigid, highly organized tetrahedral crystal lattice. And this specific bonding structure is what makes a diamond the hardest naturally occurring substance known to science.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Aaron Powell Well, forming the diamond is really only the first step, right? I mean, the second step is actually surviving the journey up to the surface.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

Yeah, which is incredibly rare. This specific diamond was originally embedded in a type of volatile volcanic rock known as kimberlite.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

And kimberlite formations act essentially as highly pressurized geological elevators, correct?

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Aaron Ross Powell That's a great way to put it. Millions of years ago, a violent supersonic volcanic eruption propelled this magma upward from the mantle. It moved so rapidly toward the Earth's surface that the diamonds embedded within it did not have time to melt or revert into graphite.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Wow. So it just shot straight up.

SPEAKER_00 3:30

Right. The eruption eventually cooled near the surface into what geologists call carrot-shaped pipes. What's fascinating here is the introduction of a trace element called boron into that otherwise pure carbon lattice.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

And that boron is the chemical anomaly that makes this specific stone so remarkable. Because for context, we are talking about a stone that currently weighs 45.3 out of two carats.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

Right, in its current modern state.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

Yeah. To give you a physical sense of that measurement, it is 9.104 grams. It's roughly the size of a pigeon egg or a large walnut. The exact measurements are 25.60 millimeters in length, 21.78 millimeters in width, and 12.00 millimeters in depth.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

And gemologically speaking, it holds a clarity grade of VS1.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

Meaning it is very slightly included.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

Exactly. There's some whitish graining present inside the lattice, but it is only visible under 10 power magnification. But the most defining characteristic, the aspect that has really driven its entire history, is its color.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Yes, the color. The Gemological Institute of America officially grades its color as a fancy dark grayish blue.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

But visually, for anyone who's seen it, the gray modifier in the stone is so incredibly dark. It resembles a deep indigo, it produces this almost inky effect.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

Yeah, when you look at it under standard incandescent light, it appears almost blackish blue. And the scientific reason for that specific color is where the microscopic details become really critical, which goes back to the boron you mentioned.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

Right. Diamonds in their purest chemical form are composed entirely of carbon atoms and they are completely transparent. But during the formation of this specific diamond over a billion years ago, a microscopic amount of boron was present in that localized area of the Earth's mantle.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

And the concentration we are talking about is astoundingly small.

SPEAKER_00 5:19

It's tiny. It varies from zero to just eight parts per million. To put that into perspective for you, for every one million carbon atoms, there are only a handful of boron atoms.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

But those few atoms change everything.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

They do, because boron atoms are slightly smaller than carbon atoms. And crucially, they possess one less available electron. So when a boron atom forces its way into the rigid crystal lattice, taking the place of a carbon atom, it creates a structural anomaly.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Which physicists refer to as an electron hole.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

Exactly. You can think of this electron hole as a highly specific color sponge. It alters how the diamond interacts with ambient light. The boron anomaly absorbs light specifically in the red, yellow, and green wavelengths of the visible spectrum.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

So because those warm colors are absorbed and literally trapped by the stone, the only light that is transmitted back to your eye is a deep, striking blue.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

Aaron Powell Which is why blue diamonds are exceptionally rare in nature. Yeah. I mean, only about one in every 100,000 mind diamonds possesses a strong natural color. And blue is considered among the rarest of all those colored variants.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

And the presence of that boron doesn't just give it that fancy dark grayish blue color. It is directly responsible for that unsettling reaction to ultraviolet light we discussed right at the top of the show.

SPEAKER_00 6:37

The red glow.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Right. That intense, brilliant red phosphorescence that persists for up to two minutes after the UV light is turned off. For centuries, you know, before the advent of modern spectroscopy, this glow-in-the-dark effect fueled the supernatural reputation of the stone.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

People genuinely believed it contained a malevolent fire.

SPEAKER_01 6:57

Exactly. But to modern scientists, this isn't magic, and it's certainly not a curse. It is a highly specific, measurable diagnostic tool.

SPEAKER_00 7:05

It really is. The red phosphorescence acts as a crucial scientific fingerprint. In the modern era of gemology, this red glow allows mineralogists to definitively distinguish natural blue diamonds formed in the Earth's mantle from artificial synthetic blue diamonds created in a laboratory.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

So how exactly does the boron cause the red glow?

SPEAKER_00 7:25

Well, the mechanics of the red glow are caused by a highly complex, specific interaction between the trace amounts of boron and trace amounts of another element nitrogen, which is also trapped within the stone's crystalline structure.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Okay, so it's a mix of the two.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

Right. When the shortwave ultraviolet light hits the diamond, it transfers energy to the electrons within the lattice. This energy excites the electrons, bumping them out of their normal state and trapping them in a higher energy state.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

And then the light turns off.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Exactly. When the external UV light is removed, those trapped electrons slowly fall back down to their normal energy state. And as they make that descent, they release their stored energy in the form of visible red light. Wow. Because this exact, precise mixture of boron acting as an electron acceptor and nitrogen acting as an electron donor is uniquely tied to the specific chaotic geological conditions of this single diamond's formation. It serves as an unforgeable, naturally occurring signature of its authenticity.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Meaning no laboratory can perfectly replicate this exact phosphorescent decay.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

None. It's impossible.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

You know, when you think about diamonds, society traditionally views them merely as pretty rocks. They are marketed as luxury items meant to sparkle on a ring or a necklace, signaling wealth or romantic commitment. But when you look at the rigorous science, this specific diamond is essentially a geological black box.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

It really is a time capsule.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

Exactly. It's a 1.1 billion year old time capsule that provides vital, irreplaceable insights into the chemical conditions of the Earth's mantle. Smithsonian curator Jeffrey Post has emphasized this exact point. The true value of this stone lies in what it tells us about planetary formation.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

It is the ultimate survivor of deep earth dynamics. It carries microscopic evidence of the Earth's interior that we could simply never access otherwise.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

But eventually, this time capsule had to see the light of day. And that brings us out of the extreme pressure of the Earth's mantle and into the vibrant booming gem trade of 17th century India.

SPEAKER_00 9:29

Right, because the documented historical record of the stone begins in the Golconda Kingdom, specifically at the collar mine, which is located in the Guntur district of what is now the modern state of Andhra Pradesh, India.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

And the collar mine wasn't a modern deep shaft operation, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:46

No, it wasn't a deep shaft operation at all. It was a vast alluvial operation. They utilized tens of thousands of laborers digging through riverbed gravel. And it was globally legendary for producing some of the world's most spectacular and chemically pure colored diamonds.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

Which brings us to a very ambitious French gem merchant named Jean-Baptiste Tavernier.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

Yes. Between the years 1640 and 1667, Tavernier made six extensive voyages to India. And you have to understand, these voyages were incredibly dangerous and time consuming.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Taking months and months by sea.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

Months by sea, overland routes, navigating complex political territories and trade monopolies. But Tavernier was a master of the Eurasian gem trade. He was fluent in the languages of commerce and highly respected by local rulers.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

And it was during these voyages that he found the stone.

SPEAKER_00 10:34

Sometime during these extensive voyages, and historian Richard Curran extensively theorizes, it may have been around the year 1653, Tavernier acquired this extraordinary blue diamond directly from the Golconda region.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

And at this point in history, it was not the refined, multifaceted gem you see in a museum today. It was a massive, raw, uncut, rough stone.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

Just a huge chunk of blue rock. Tavernier kept meticulous illustrated records of his inventory. His own writings indicate the stone weighed over 112 carats.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Though there is some debate about that exact number.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

There is a deeply technical historical debate regarding the exact measurement, yes. Tavernier used the old French carrot, which differs slightly from modern standardized measurements. When converted to modern metric carats, historians and gemologists like Bernard Morel calculate that the rough stone weighed an astonishing 115.28 metric carats.

SPEAKER_01 11:29

That is massive. So Tavernier secures this massive blue rock, survives the perilous journey back to Paris, and around the year 1668 or 1669, he presents it to King Lou XIV of France, the absolute monarch known as the Sun King.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

The sheer economic scale of this transaction requires careful analysis. Tavernier did not just sell the large blue diamond, he sold it as the centerpiece of a massive parcel containing roughly 1,000 other diamonds he had painstakingly acquired in India.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

And King Louis XIV purchased the entire lot.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

He did. The official recorded price for this royal transaction was 220,000 livres. To truly grasp the magnitude of that number, we have to convert it into tangible assets. 220,000 livres was the economic equivalent of 147 kilograms of pure gold.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Wow, 147 kilos.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

It is an immense transfer of sovereign wealth. But the compensation for a merchant of Tavernier's stature did not end with hard currency.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

Here's where it gets really interesting. Historian and gemologist Richard W. Wise proposes, based on rigorous study of French royal decrees, that the financial payment was only one part of a much larger socioeconomic deal. Taverg was also granted a formal patent of nobility by Louis XIV.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

Which was a huge deal back then.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

A massive deal.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

Right, they needed the money.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

Exactly. An outright patent of nobility, which granted elevated social status and crucial tax exemptions, was valued at approximately 500,000 livres. So if you combine the direct cash payment of 220,000 livres with the tangible value of the patent of nobility worth 500,000 livres, Tarvani's total compensation for the diamonds was an astronomical 720,000 livres.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

He elevated himself from a traveling merchant to a titled aristocrat in a single transaction. If we connect this to the bigger picture, you're witnessing the deliberate transformation of a geological anomaly into a direct instrument of absolute state power. Louis XIV did not just want a large blue rock to lock in a vault somewhere. He was engineering a highly visible symbol of his divine right to rule.

SPEAKER_01 13:55

So what did he do with it?

SPEAKER_00 13:57

Well, in 1678, a decade after acquiring the rough stone, the king commissioned his elite court jeweler, Jean Pitao, to recut the massive rough diamond. And we must pause to consider the monumental difficulty of this task.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

Because diamond cutting in the 17th century was nothing like it is today.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

Nothing at all. They did not have laser precision or computer mapping. It relied entirely on rudimentary tools and physical intuition. The primary method involved meticulously grinding the sewn against a metal wheel that was impregnated with diamond dust and olive oil.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

And the risk of destroying it was huge, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:30

Right. Absolutely. Because diamonds, despite their hardness, possess precise cleavage planes. These are weak points in their crystalline structure where the atomic bonds are less dense. One wrong strike or even an uncalculated application of friction and pressure could shatter the priceless stone into worthless fragments.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

Patau worked on this single stone for two grueling years. Think about the unimaginable pressure of that job. You listening, put yourself in his shoes. You are tasked with holding the absolute monarch's most valuable, irreplicable asset against a grinding wheel day after day for 24 months.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

Knowing a single mistake could result in imprisonment or worse.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

Exactly. When Patel finally finished his meticulous work, he had intentionally sheared away almost half the original stone's weight. It resulted in a refined, polished gem weighing 67.125 garats.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

But the loss of nearly 50 carats of material was not an error. It was a highly calculated sacrifice designed to maximize the stone's internal brilliance and really bring out its deep color.

SPEAKER_01 15:34

And the shape was completely unique.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

It was. The new shape was described in Royal Inventories as a triangular cut, possessing spectacular bluish-gray rays that commanded attention from across a room. Royal Inventories officially designated it as the blue diamond of the crown of France, though historians and gemologists typically refer to it simply as the French blue.

SPEAKER_01 15:55

The specific design of its setting was intensely political too, reflecting the core ideology of the absolutist state. The French blue was placed on a brilliant cravat pin, specifically designed to be worn on the king's neckwear during major state ceremonies and diplomatic receptions.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

Right, on his throat.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Exactly. And at the very heart of the Diamonds Cut, Piteau ingeniously fashioned a geometric sun featuring seven distinct facets.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

The sun, of course, was the personal, inescapable emblem of Louis XIV, the very reason he was known as the Sun King. It was meant to signify that all life and power in France orbited around him.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

And the number seven was deeply significant as well. In biblical and medieval cosmology, seven represented divinity, spiritual perfection, and total completion.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

So by wearing this stone, the diamond literally reflected the state ideology that the king's power emanated directly from God, and that his authority was as unbreakable and brilliant as the stone itself.

SPEAKER_01 16:51

But the physical evolution of the French blue did not stop with the Sun King. In 1749, his great-grandson, King Louis XV, decided to elevate the stone setting to even more absurd heights of luxury and royal exclusivity.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

He commissioned his own court jeweler, Andre Jacquemin, to permanently integrate the French blue into an incredibly elaborate, heavily jeweled pendant for the Order of the Golden Fleece.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

And I want you to visualize the sheer weight and audacity of this piece. Imagine wearing a necklace where the central pendant features the 67 karat French blue, but directly above it sits a massive 107-carat red spinel.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

Which is a completely different type of precious gemstone.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

Exactly. And this red spinel was intricately carved by hand into the terrifying shape of a dragon breathing flames.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

A dragon breathing flames right above the blue diamond.

SPEAKER_01 17:41

Yeah. And surrounding this red dragon and the glowing blue diamond were 83 diamonds painted red and 112 diamonds painted yellow, arranged to suggest the shape of a golden fleece hanging in the center.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

The order of the golden fleece was an elite chivalric order, restricted to Catholic monarchs and the highest echelon of European nobility. This specific pendant, commissioned by Louis XV, was the ultimate signal of extreme wealth and untouchable authority.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

I mean, when you consider modern concepts of power signaling billionaires purchasing private jets or sports franchises or mega yachts, they fundamentally pale in comparison to the psychological impact of a monarch standing before his court wearing a glowing 67-carat blue diamond and a 107-carat red dragon resting on his chest.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

It was designed to instill absolute awe and intimidate visiting ambassadors. However, this magnificent heavy piece fell into disuse after the death of Louis XV. It passed down to his grandson, King Louis XVI.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

And while his wife, Queen Marie Antoinette, famously utilized and repurposed many of the French crown jewels for her personal adornment, historical records and meticulous palace inventories strongly suggest she never wore the Golden Fleece pendant.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

Right. That specific piece of regalia was reserved strictly and exclusively for the personal use of the reigning king.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

Which brings us to one of the most chaotic, bloody, and pivotal moments in European history. By 1792, the French Revolution was in full, uncontrollable swing, specifically entering the radical period known as the Reign of Terror.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

King Louis XVI and his family had been stripped of their power and were imprisoned under heavy guard in the Square de Temple. The absolute monarchy had totally collapsed.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

And the incredible concentrated wealth of the French crown jewels, including the Golden Fleece pendant, was confiscated by the new revolutionary government. It was transferred to the Royal Storhouse, an imposing building known as the Hotel du Garde Meble de la Coron in Paris.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

And on September 11, 1792, amid massive civil unrest and institutional breakdown, a catastrophic security failure occurred. A large group of thieves broke into the storehouse.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

And it is crucial to understand that this was not a quick smash and grab operation perpetrated in the dead of night.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

No. The sheer volume of wealth inside the Garden Meeble meant the looting spree lasted for five entire days. Five days? Yes. The thieves systematically and aggressively stripped the building of its priceless treasures. They were drinking the royal wine reserves and passing gems out of the windows to accomplices.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

Oh chaos.

SPEAKER_00 20:19

Total chaos. While many of the smaller jewels and gold settings were eventually recovered by revolutionary authorities in the subsequent years, through arrests and interrogations, the French blue vanished completely without a trace.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

The 67 karat diamond just disappeared from the historical record, leaving a void in the inventory of the state. The following year, in 1793, both King Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette were executed by guillotine, officially ending the era of the monarchy that had commissioned the stone.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

The disappearance of the French blue during this astonishing five-day heist is the subject of intense historical scrutiny and debate. The Smithsonian historian Richard Curran has put forward a highly detailed, compelling theory.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

Yeah, his theory is fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

He meticulously speculates that the theft of the French crown jewels was not merely the work of opportunistic, disorganized common criminals taking advantage of the riots. Instead, he suggests it was secretly engineered from the top down by the powerful revolutionary leader Georges Danton.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

Because at that exact time, the new French Republic was under severe existential military threat from opposing monarchist forces aiming to crush the revolution.

SPEAKER_00 21:30

Exactly. Curran theorizes that Danton deliberately orchestrated the theft of the crown jewels to use the priceless gems as an untraceable slush fund. The goal was to bribe an opposing military commander, specifically Duke Carl Wilhelm of Brunswick, ensuring a strategic French military advantage at the critical Battle of Valmy.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

Which occurred just days after the heist concluded.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

Right. Whether the theft was a highly coordinated political bribe, engineered by Danton, or simply an opportunistic heist by By desperate citizens, the subsequent cover-up required the permanent brutal destruction of the French blues' visual identity.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

Aaron Powell Because they had to evade the French authorities, who were actively hunting for the stolen state assets. So the diamond was swiftly smuggled out of Paris, likely across the Channel, and transported to London.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

Aaron Ross Powell And there it underwent what modern gemologists universally describe as a butchered job of a recut.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

Aaron Powell You have to remember the stone weighed 67 carats and had a highly specific, universally recognizable Baroque, triangular shape featuring that distinctive seven-faceted sun emblem.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

Aaron Powell To hide it, an unknown, highly skilled but desperate diamond cutter took a chisel and grinding wheel to the world's most recognizable jewel. They deliberately sheared off 23.5 carats.

SPEAKER_01 22:47

Just massive amounts of the stone.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

Yeah, reducing its size dramatically and permanently destroying its original, meticulously crafted brogue style, just to make it unrecognizable to authorities.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Let us pause and think about the psychological toll on the diamond cutter in London who was tasked with that specific job. Imagine being in their position. You are handed the most famous stolen diamond in all of Europe.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

You know with absolute certainty that if you are caught with it, you could face immediate execution or a lifetime in a brutal prison.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

And your specific job is to intentionally destroy a masterpiece of 17th century lapidary art. You have to grind away over 20 carats of priceless billion-year-old blue diamond, turning millions of livres worth of material into worthless dust just to create a physical alibi for a game of thieves.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

It's really hard to fathom. For over two centuries, it remained a prominent historical theory that the modern diamond we know today was indeed cut from the stolen French blue. But it remained an entirely circumstantial theory based on color and timeline until a monumental, undeniable scientific discovery in the early 2000s.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

The definitive, unassailable proof arrived through the meticulous application of forensic gemology. In 2007, researchers exploring the vast archives of the Paris National Museum of Natural History discovered a small three-dimensional leaden model of a diamond.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

This is such a cool piece of the history. In the 19th century, long before photography, it was a common standardized practice for prominent jewelers and lapidaries to cast lead models of significant gems. This allowed them to keep a precise, physical, three-dimensional record of their inventory for insurance and replication purposes.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

And this specific lead cast had been quietly cataloged in 1850 and completely forgotten. Before this extraordinary discovery, historians and scientists only had two-dimensional drawings from the 1749 Golden Fleece Commission and a 1789 Royal Inventory to estimate the French Blue's true physical dimensions.

SPEAKER_00 24:48

But when the scientific researchers subjected this lead cast to advanced computer-aided design CAD, scanning the digital results were absolutely undeniable.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

The highly precise laser scan of the LEED model revealed 20 previously unknown microscopic facets on the back of the French blue that had never been documented in the two-dimensional royal drawings.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

Which is incredible. When the scientists took the precise digital dimensions of the modern-day blue diamond and superimposed them directly onto the 3D computer model of the French blue, it was a perfect locked-in geometric fit.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

The scan mathematically proved exactly how the modern diamond was oriented and cut out of the larger French stone. The fit was so incredibly tight, aligning with the cleavage planes perfectly, that it completely eliminated the lingering theory that any significant sister stones could have been cut from the 23 karats of off-cuts.

SPEAKER_00 25:39

It was conclusive, undeniable, mathematical proof. The blue diamond sitting in Washington today is the direct, mutilated survivor of the French blues stolen during the Reign of Terror.

SPEAKER_01 25:49

And this mathematical proof brings us directly to the brilliant, highly suspicious timing of the diamond's sudden reappearance in the historical record. For exactly 20 years, the newly recut blue diamond remained completely hidden in the shadows of the European black market, its location entirely unknown.

SPEAKER_00 26:07

Then, suddenly, in September 1812, a massive blue stone weighing approximately 45.5 carats surfaced in the possession of a prominent London diamond merchant named Daniel Eliason.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

And the timing of this emergence is the critical factor here. September 1812 was exactly two days after the 20-year statute of limitations for the 1792 theft in Paris had legally expired under French law.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

Two days. The timing is far too perfect to be a coincidence.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

It is the exact equivalent of a perfectly calculated modern-day art heist fencing operation, like something out of a meticulous heist film. The thieves, or the syndicate who held the stone, intimately knew the nuances of French law.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

They waited in the dark for two straight decades, quietly watching the calendar, enduring the financial carrying cost of a priceless asset they could not sell.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

And the absolute second the legal clock ran out, ensuring they could no longer be prosecuted or have the asset legally seized for the theft of the French crown jewels, they brought the diamond out into the open market in London.

SPEAKER_00 27:09

And once it was back in the light, completely unburdened by legal liability, it immediately caught the attention of the highest, most affluent levels of British society. There are strong, compelling traces of historical evidence suggesting that King George IV of the United Kingdom secretly acquired the diamond from the merchant Daniel Eliason.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

And there's an interesting connection there, right?

SPEAKER_00 27:30

Very much so. It is deeply speculated by historians that George's wife, Caroline of Brunswick, who crucially was the daughter of the very Duke Carl Wilhelm of Brunswick, who may have been originally bribed by Danton with the stolen jewels, may have utilized her family connections to help procure the diamond for the British monarch.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

That is a wild full circle, if true. However, King George IV had a notorious, highly problematic habit of intermingling the official state crown jewels with his own private personal property and family heirlooms.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

Yeah, he was not great with finances. When the king died in 1830, he left behind absolutely enormous, crippling financial debts. To cover these staggering liabilities and satisfy furious creditors, his personal effects, including the blue diamond, were discreetly and rapidly liquidated through private off-the-books channels.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

So because it was handled privately to settle debts, the stone was not retained by the British royal family. Instead, it was purchased by an immense private wealth. The stone was acquired by the incredibly wealthy, internationally powerful Anglo-Dutch banking family, Hope and Company.

SPEAKER_00 28:38

Specifically, it was purchased by the banker Thomas Hope, or his brother Henry Philip Hope, for a massive sum estimated by historians to be between$65,000 and$90,000 at the time.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

And in 1839, the gem was officially cataloged and published in a detailed registry of Henry Philip Hope's extensive private gem collection. From that moment on, the stone permanently lost its French royal title, shedding its association with the Sun King, and gained the name it holds today, the Hope Diamond.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

The stone remained securely in the Hope family for decades, set in a relatively simple, understated medallion surrounded by smaller white diamonds. It was a stark contrast to the blazing dragon of the French court.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

It was displayed publicly at the Great Exhibition of London in 1851 and the Exposition Universelle in Paris in 1855, drawing massive crowds. But mostly it sat quietly in bank vaults, serving as a glittering anchor of generational wealth.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

However, that generational wealth eventually met with human frailty and changing economic tides. In 1887, the diamond was inherited by Lord Francis Hope.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

And Lord Francis had a life interest in his inheritance. This was a strict legal arrangement, meaning he was legally prohibited from selling off the core capital assets of the estate, including the famous diamond, without explicit, incredibly difficult to obtain permission from the court system.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

And Lord Francis absolutely lived beyond his means, demonstrating a spectacular inability to manage his finances. In 1894, he married May Yohei, a highly successful American concert hall singer, who was famously described by the press as the sensation of two continents.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

Together, they lived a lavish, extravagant lifestyle, funding theatrical productions, taking luxurious trips, and hosting massive parties that quickly caught up with them. Lord Francis was plunged deeply into bankruptcy.

SPEAKER_00 30:28

To survive his total financial ruin, he petitioned the court to break the strict terms of his inheritance. After a bitter, protracted legal fight spanning years, the master and chancery finally granted him legal permission to sell the famous blue diamond to satisfy his furious creditors and pay off his mounting debts.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

And in 1901, Francis sold the stone for 29,000 pounds. This was a mere fraction of its true market value due to it being a desperate force sale. He sold it to a London jewel merchant named Adolf Weil.

SPEAKER_00 30:57

And to add profound insult to his financial injury, shortly after the humiliating sale, his wife Mei Yohei ran off with a gentleman friend named Putnam Strong, who happened to be the son of a former New York City mayor. Ouch. Yeah. This raises an important question regarding the nature of human misfortune and our desire to assign blame to inanimate objects. The profound financial ruin of Lord Francis Hope and the highly public dissolution of his marriage are frequently cited in popular culture as undeniable evidence of a supernatural force at work, a curse punishing the owners of the stone.

SPEAKER_01 31:33

But when you analytically examine the socioeconomic conditions of the era, you see a much more grounded logical reality.

SPEAKER_00 31:39

Absolutely. You had an entire class of aristocrats relying heavily on the depreciating value of British sterling. They were struggling to navigate the severe economic aftershocks of the Napoleonic blockades and dealing with massive agricultural depressions.

SPEAKER_01 31:52

They're living far beyond their actual liquid cash reserves, maintaining massive country estates they could no longer afford.

SPEAKER_00 31:59

They used priceless gems not just as pretty adornments, but as secret financial collateral to prop up failing estates and fund lavish lifestyles. It was extreme wealth, rapid social change, and spectacularly poor financial management rather than cosmic retribution that led directly to the downfall of the Hope descendants.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

After Adolf Eel bought the stone in London at that massive discount, it quickly crossed the Atlantic Ocean. In 1901, it was sold to Simon Frankel, a prominent diamond dealer based in New York City.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

Frankel paid a reported$250,000, aiming to flip it for a massive profit. But Frankel's business soon ran into severe, unavoidable financial difficulties.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

Because during the brutal economic depression of 1907, the Frankel firm was struggling so badly to maintain operations that they began bitterly referring to the gem as the Hoodoo Diamond.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

Right, actively blaming the stone for tying up all their liquid capital during a severe credit crunch. They eventually managed to sell it in 1908 to a wealthy Turkish diamond collector named Salem Habid for a reported$400,000.

SPEAKER_01 33:05

But Habib's fortunes also turned. He fell deeply into debt, and his assets were forcibly auctioned off in Paris in 1909 to satisfy his creditors. The stone was bought by a Parisian merchant who then flicked it in 1910 to a man who would forever change the narrative and mythology of the stone, Pierre Cartier.

SPEAKER_00 33:26

Pierre Cartier was not just an elite jeweler. He was a profound master of human psychology, high-end retail marketing, and narrative construction.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

Cartier acquired the blue diamond and immediately targeted a very specific, carefully chosen buyer, Evelyn Walsh McLean. She was a young, immensely wealthy, and highly eccentric Washington, D.C. socialite, the heiress to a massive Colorado gold mining fortune.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

Cartier traveled directly to the United States specifically to show her the stone. But he did not present it in a standard velvet box under bright, flattering lights like a typical jeweler.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

No, he used a brilliantly understated, highly manipulative presentation. He kept the gem completely hidden underneath special wrapping paper.

SPEAKER_00 34:08

He was sitting quietly in her presence and slowly, deliberately recounting the illustrious, mysterious, and dangerous history of the snow without letting her actually see it.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

He intentionally built the suspense, letting her imagination do the heavy lifting until she could not take it anymore and demanded to see the gem. But even then, after the dramatic reveal, she initially rejected it.

SPEAKER_00 34:30

The old-fashioned, simple medallion setting from the Hope family did not appeal to her modern Gilded Age tastes. So Cartier took the stone back to his workshop and completely reimagined it.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

He reset the blue diamond into a spectacular modern platinum framework, surrounding the blue center stone with 16 large white diamonds alternating perfectly between old mine-cut and pear-shaped variants.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

This is the exact iconic setting the diamond rests in today. When he presented this new, highly fashionable, brilliantly structured setting to McLean, she was captivated by its beauty.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

But the true genius of Cartier's sales pitch was not just the custom platinum framework. It was the dark, thrilling narrative he expertly wove around it.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

Cartier, fully aware of the public's intense fascination with the macabre and the exotic, leaned heavily into the fabricated history of the Hoodoo Diamond that the Frankel firm had muttered about.

SPEAKER_01 35:25

Working in tandem with sensationalist newspaper editors of the era, a comprehensive, terrifying curse mythology was deliberately constructed.

SPEAKER_00 35:34

To entice Evelyn Walsh McLean, a woman who already possessed every conceivable luxury in the world and who desperately craved exclusivity, thrill, and public attention, the diamond was actively marketed as an object of beautiful, malevolent danger.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

The newspapers published lurid, highly detailed lists of supposed victims, claiming the diamond brought murder, suicide, madness, and total financial ruin to anyone who dared touch it.

SPEAKER_00 36:00

And we really need to systematically debunk those ridiculous claims right now, using the actual historical record.

SPEAKER_01 36:05

Please do.

SPEAKER_00 36:06

The sensational stories claim the original rough stone was stolen by Tavernier directly from the eye of a sculpted Hindu idol in a sacred temple, angering local priests who laid a blood curse upon the stone and anyone who touched it.

SPEAKER_01 36:18

Which is completely untrue.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

Pure unadulterated fiction. Tavernier bought it from a standard mine through established trade networks. The newspapers also claimed Tavernier was later torn to pieces by wild dogs in Constantinople as a direct result of the curse.

SPEAKER_01 36:33

Also completely false.

SPEAKER_00 36:34

Right. A complete fabrication. Historical records absolutely prove Tavernier lived a highly successful, exceptionally wealthy life, retiring to a massive estate and dying of natural causes at the incredibly advanced age of 84.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

The fabricated list of victims also included a Dutch jeweller named Wilhelm Falls, who supposedly recut the stone, only to be violently robbed by his own son Schendrik, who then supposedly committed suicide in a fit of cursed guilt.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

And comprehensive genealogical and historical research confirms that both Wilhelm and Hendrik Falls were entirely fictitious characters invented by creative writers to sell newspapers.

SPEAKER_01 37:11

The origin of this specific type of curse mythology is deeply rooted in Victorian-era literature and cultural anxieties. The overarching theme of greedy Westerners stealing a cursed sacred jewel from an ancient Eastern shrine was highly popularized by the author Wilkie Collins in his widely read 1868 mystery novel, The Moonstone.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

Journalists and marketers simply copy-pasted the fictional plot of the Moonstone directly onto the Hope Diamond to increase newspaper circulation and artificially inflate the stone's mystique.

SPEAKER_01 37:42

They also ruthlessly capitalized on the emerging public obsession with Egyptian mummy curses that dominated the cultural zeitgeist of the late 19th and early 20th centuries following major archaeological excavations.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

Every single historical misfortune vaguely associated with the French court, from the political disgrace of Finance Minister Nicolas Fouquet to the literal beheadings of the French Revolution, was retroactively and unfairly blamed on the mere presence of the diamond.

SPEAKER_01 38:09

So what does this all mean? It means the famous curse is nothing more than a potent cocktail of confirmation bias, yellow journalism, and brilliant, highly cynical retail marketing.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

And Evelyn Walsh McLean bought the story and the diamond, hook, line, and sinker.

SPEAKER_01 38:24

She really did. In 1911, the McLean family officially purchased the gem from Cartier for an estimated$300,000, which was a massive fortune at the time.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

To give you a sense of her extreme eccentricities and total disregard for the supposed curse, she did not lock it away safely in a dark bank vault. She wore it constantly.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

She wore it prominently to lavish society parties, ensuring everyone saw it. She would deliberately hide the priceless uninsured diamond somewhere on her massive Washington estate and invite her wealthy guests to play a parlor game she called Finding the Hope.

SPEAKER_00 38:58

There are even multiple corroborated reports that she strapped the diamond directly to the collar of her massive great dame, a dog named Mike.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

Letting the animal casually roam the grounds during parties wearing the world's most famous jewel.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

It's wild. The security precautions she eventually had to take to protect the stone were utterly absurd, turning her life into a fortress. She hired William Schindale, a highly trained former Secret Service man, strictly to guard the stone at all times.

SPEAKER_01 39:27

He, in turn, was constantly guarded by two armed private detectives. The diamond was transported daily from a secure bank vault to her mansion in a specially purchased armored automobile.

SPEAKER_00 39:38

Despite the immense, reckless risks she took with the physical security of the stone, it was remarkably never stolen during her long ownership. However, the McLean family did suffer profound, very real personal tragedies, including the devastating deaths of multiple children and the bitter dissolution of their marriage.

SPEAKER_01 39:56

And the press, eager to maintain the profitable narrative they had built, aggressively attributed these very human tragedies to the Cartier curse, completely ignoring the complex realities of their lives. When Evelyn Walsh McLean finally died in 1947, she left behind massive, insurmountable debts, forcing her court-appointed trustees to liquidate her entire vast jewelry collection to satisfy creditors.

SPEAKER_00 40:20

This forced liquidation paved the way for the diamond to undergo its final transformation. It moved from a symbol of private Gilded Age excess into a protected public treasure.

SPEAKER_01 40:29

In 1949, the legendary, incredibly savvy New York diamond merchant Harry Winston purchased Evelyn Walsh McLean's entire jewelry collection to officially settle her estate.

SPEAKER_00 40:40

Winston was a highly pragmatic, data-driven businessman who put absolutely no stock in the stories of a supernatural curse. He took the diamond back to his workshop and made a very minor, highly precise gemological adjustment.

SPEAKER_01 40:53

He slightly recut the bottom culet facet to increase its overall brilliance and light return. For the next decade, Winston utilized the blue diamond as the glittering centerpiece of his court of jewels.

SPEAKER_00 41:05

This was a highly publicized, heavily guarded touring exhibition that traveled around the United States, raising massive amounts of money for local charities while simultaneously promoting the elite Winston brand to a new generation of buyers.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

But the ultimate destiny of the diamond changed significantly due to the quiet intervention of a dedicated Smithsonian mineralogist named George Switzer.

SPEAKER_00 41:26

Switzer keenly observed the immense, undeniable public fascination the diamond generated during Winston's national tour. He approached Harry Winston with a bold visionary idea. He asked Winston to donate the world's most famous diamond entirely to the United States government.

SPEAKER_01 41:43

The goal was for the stone to serve as the foundational anchorpiece for a newly proposed national gem collection that would rival the royal treasuries of Europe.

SPEAKER_00 41:53

And Winston, possessing a genuine, deeply felt desire to establish a world-class gemological institution for the American public, and recognizing the historic legacy such a gift would secure, agreed to the staggering donation.

SPEAKER_01 42:06

And you have to ask yourself, listening to this, why would a shrewd businessman like Harry Winston simply give away an asset that is today valued anywhere from$200 to$350 million?

SPEAKER_00 42:18

As you noted, he wanted to build a national collection, a legacy that transcended personal wealth.

SPEAKER_01 42:23

But beyond his generosity, you have to appreciate the incredible irony of exactly how this historic transfer occurred. We are talking about the most famous, allegedly cursed, completely irreplaceable diamond on earth. Harry Winston did not hire a massive fleet of armored trucks.

SPEAKER_00 42:39

He did not hire an army of heavily armed mercenaries to transport it from New York to Washington, D.C.

SPEAKER_01 42:45

On November 10th, 1958, Winston simply placed the diamond into a plain box, wrapped it in simple brown paper, and mailed it to the Smithsonian Institution via the regular registered United States mail.

SPEAKER_00 42:57

The total cost of the postage and insurance for the package was exactly$145.29.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

Unbelievable. It traveled securely through the everyday postal system, handled by regular mail carriers, completely unnoticed and arriving entirely unharmed.

SPEAKER_00 43:12

Upon safely arriving at the National Museum of Natural History, the diamond was officially removed from its brown paper wrapping and cataloged by the scientific staff as specimen number two one seven eight six eight.

SPEAKER_01 43:25

For its first four decades at the museum, it rested simply inside a standard glass fronted safe viewed by millions but displayed quite humbly. But as security technology and display aesthetics advanced, so did its presentation. Platinum setting and protect it from humidity and vibration. It is currently the undisputed centerpiece of the Janet Annenberg Hooker Hall of Geology, Gems, and Minerals.

SPEAKER_00 44:10

And the Smithsonian curators are always very quick to point out that the legendary, terrifying curse went completely, permanently dormant the absolute second it entered the public trust.

SPEAKER_01 44:18

Far from bringing ruin, the diamond has brought nothing but incredible, measurable good luck to the institution. It is by far the most popular jewel on display, single-handedly driving massive, sustained attendance levels and directly inspiring countless further donations from private collectors that have successfully built the national collection into a world-class treasury.

SPEAKER_00 44:41

Over the years, the museum has occasionally carefully removed the gem from its historic quartier setting for rigorous scientific testing or special temporary displays, such as the modern Embracing Hope setting designed in 2010, but it always eventually returns to its iconic platinum framework.

SPEAKER_01 44:58

While the original diamond remains incredibly secure under bulletproof glass in Washington, the incredible scientific discoveries surrounding its chaotic history have sparked a modern renaissance of craftsmanship in Europe.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

Let us return to that pivotal 2007 discovery of the hidden lead cast in the Paris Archives. The astonishing realization that the exact original dimensions of the stolen French blue were perfectly preserved in lead triggered a massive, highly ambitious international historical reconstruction project.

SPEAKER_01 45:26

Between 2007 and 2010, a dedicated, highly specialized team of artisans, master lapidaries, and historians set out to physically resurrect the lost masterpieces of the French crown jewels that had been destroyed over two centuries ago.

SPEAKER_00 45:41

This was a staggering, almost impossible undertaking. They weren't just making digital models on a screen. They were building exact, historically accurate, physical recreations of the immense jewels worn by the Sun King and Louis XV.

SPEAKER_01 45:57

Because they possessed the precise CAD data derived directly from the lead cast, a master lapidary named Scott Suture was able to cut exact millimeter-perfect replicas of both the original Tavernier Blue Roughstone and the 67 karat French blue using massive blocks of cubic zirconia.

SPEAKER_00 46:14

But the team didn't stop at just recreating the blue diamonds. They made the incredible decision to recreate the entire massive order of the Golden Fleece pendant that was brutally dismantled and destroyed during the French Revolution.

SPEAKER_01 46:26

This recreation required an incredible, highly coordinated synthesis of cutting-edge digital technology and ancient 18th-century artisanal skills.

SPEAKER_00 46:35

To recreate the massive 107-carat red spinel that was shaped like a terrifying dragon, an artist named Pascal Money carefully sculpted an exact wax-likeness based on highly scaled 3D pictures generated from the original two-dimensional historical drawings.

SPEAKER_01 46:51

Then another specialized artist, Etienne Leperlier, took that fragile wax mold and cast a durable duplicate using lead glass. And what about the intricate, heavy framework of the golden fleece itself? They couldn't just 3D print a plastic replica.

SPEAKER_00 47:18

No, a highly skilled Geneva-based artist named Jean Manassian meticulously carved the complex silver matrix entirely by hand. He spent months recreating the delicate three-dimensional elements of the dragon's wings, its textured tail, and the surrounding ornate palms. He based every single microscopic cut on surviving historical drawings from 1749.

SPEAKER_01 47:39

They carefully set over 500 individual, precisely cut cubic zirconia stones into the silver matrix to accurately represent the hundreds of red and yellow diamonds that adorned the original piece.

SPEAKER_00 47:51

They painted the backs of these stones using the exact same painstaking methods the original royal jeweler Andre Jacman used centuries ago.

SPEAKER_01 48:00

The result of these three years of intense obsessive labor is a breathtaking physical manifestation of a jewel that hasn't existed since the thieves broke into the royal storehouse in 1792. It perfectly, beautifully reverses the butcher job of those desperate diamond cutters in London.

SPEAKER_00 48:17

The sheer dedication required to resurrect this lost history visually proves that human ingenuity can effectively reach back across centuries to reclaim what was violently stolen. The advanced CAD technology allowed us to mathematically prove the undeniable lineage of the stone, but the traditional lapidary skills allowed us to visually, viscerally understand the awe-inspiring power that these gems were explicitly meant to project.

SPEAKER_01 48:40

When you view the massive reconstruction of the Golden Fleece, you finally understand why absolute monarchs willingly spent the equivalent of hundreds of kilograms of gold to acquire these stones.

SPEAKER_00 48:52

They were not just pretty objects, they were the ultimate terrifying fusion of geological rarity and supreme human artistry, designed to subjugate the viewer.

SPEAKER_01 49:02

The 2010 Reconstruction Project proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the French blue was recut into the modern stone we see today, fitting so perfectly into the CAD model that there were virtually no off-cuts left over. But this incredible feat of forensic gemology leaves us with a truly provocative thought, derived directly from the surviving historical records.

SPEAKER_00 49:23

The French blue was not the only magnificent colored diamond set into that massive order of the Golden Fleece.

SPEAKER_01 49:29

The pendant also contained another massive, historically significant gem known as the Bazoo Diamond. It was an incredibly rare stone, explicitly described in the 1791 Royal Inventory, as a light sky blue diamond weighing over 32 carats.

SPEAKER_00 49:44

The Bazoo diamond was stolen during the exact same 1792 heist. It vanished completely into the black market, likely suffering a similar brutal fate of being ruthlessly recut by desperate men to disguise its royal identity.

SPEAKER_01 49:57

It leaves you wondering what other heavily disguised butchered masterpieces from the French crown jewels are currently sitting in private safes or auction houses right now, completely unrecognized by their modern owners. The physical evidence is out there, waiting for the right scientific scan to reveal its true ancient identity. We hope you will never look at a museum artifact the exact same way again. Thanks for listening.